More Mass Murders in Afghanistan
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15 March 2012
Got this message from former Marine Tim Lynch, in Afghanistan. Tim's not always polite, but he's a former infantry officer and I listen to him very closely:
"The Taliban killed 13 women and children today with an IED in Uruzgan and I think they got 8 yesterday - but that's all cool here because they're the Taliban and we're the big fat retarded kid on the block who gets bullied everyday but still shows up to fork over even more lunch money while assuming at some point everyone will like us because we're so xxxxx generous."
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Comments
Also, in my own experience there is little or no connection between education and the ability to think outside one's culture. If anything education appears to obstruct cultural understanding. I have talked to numerous enlisted men who had a much better understanding of the locals than many highly educated journalists writing about the Middle East.
Beg my pardon, I completely misunderstood what you meant, and I agree with your statement concerning the disadvantaged position the common Afghan is in if he would like to study the Koran himself. The higher the illiteracy rates are, the more power is channeled towards those who do know how to read, especially in societies and cultures were religion is an important part.
YOu f$@#king kidding me dude??!!! The Taliban was raping and pillaging the local population DAILY!!! Yeah, the locals were really enjoying that numb nuts.. They were BASED in Afghanistan, that's not even debatable. Trying to give these cavemen a better way of life, and your dumb as says we have no respect.. In 2000 years these people will still be killing each other. "NO RESPECT" what a [censored] joke. Must be tough to hear with your head buried in your ass.
Holy crap guy... Pull your head out of your 4th point of contact and get amn informed opinion before you post garbage like this.
I think that, by now, most literate people see the comparisons between our current war in Afghanistan and that of the Vietnam war from say, 1970 forward. The troops are disgusted and wonder what we are doing in the war. No one wants to be the last to die. The government is corrupt and is getting rich while it can.
But drawing the comparisons is not enough. "History is prologue." Learn the lessons from history and get the hell out of Afghanistan.... today, by the end of the month, or within sixty days. But GET OUT before more of our precious blood is spilled on that cursed land.
We aim to screw the Afghans who have been loyal to us in any event. We might as well do it now and, at least, save some American blood.
Semper fidelis,
Snakey Tricker Charlie
How many died because we pulled out?
How many fled the tyranny we let take over?
How many died trying to get out?
And this is nothing like Vietnam.
We lost 58,000 men over there.
So far in Afghanistan < 2,000.
Compare with 6800 dead in just over a month on Iwo Jima.120,000 (Allied) at Normandy in a month and a half. 12,000 on D-day alone.
The US lost 3,000 just on Omaha Beach.
You talkin' our govt. or theirs?
The reality is like Craig said in the first post. In a battle for the hearts and minds with Islam and the local Imams the USA will always loose. If that is the fight we've picked, then maybe we need to take out bat and ball and go home.
who cares about their hearts and minds?
bring the soldiers home
You do see the flaws of that argument? For starters, it's horrible that they butcher their own women and children. Maybe that means they have no hearts (not in the practical term of course), but don't the women and children have that? You're saying that because a man who butchers has no heart, there are no hearts, but what about the ones he butchers?
And of course they have minds. Every single person has a mind, regardless of if he is Karzai, Obama, McChrystal, or even Hitler. Everyone has a mind.
e did indeed throw those people under the bus. And they were our ALLIES. I certainly don't see Afghanistan as an ally of the United States. At least part of my point, in drawing the comparison to Vietnam, is that WHEN we leave Afghanistan, those who were friendly toward the U.S.A. and its military will be murdered...or, as the Taliban might put it, "reeducated." It is inevitable, no matter when we withdraw.
And, if I may use this space to respond
to Thomas Dodd, I don't quite understand your argument.
Am am curious if you ever served on active duty in our military? Because you don't "seam" to understand the lessons to which I advert. I hope you are not offended, but my commentary has nothing to do with the number of men & women killed in action in any particular campaign or war. It has only to do with our nation's habit, in recent history, of abandoning our friends and allies -- even those forced reluctantly to assume this role -- and the blood bath that ensues after we leave that once-upon-a-tim e ally to the hands of their oppressors. But I don't think you get it.
I too agree sir!
You said get out now which is what we did then, and look at how many more died because of it.
It irks me to no end when people compare the small loss of men in the current fight to prior wars. There is just no comparison.
I hope to God we don't pull out in 2014. Doing so in Iraq was a mistake and we will pay for it later. Afghanistan will be the same if we pull out anytime soon.
It will degenerate back to what it was in 2000, just as Iraq is doing now.
As for prior service.. Marine Corps.
As of now, I work for the Army (not in), and am currently in Afghanistan.
In COIN, you generally start of with allies that are less than you'd want, because if they'd been as good as you, there wouldn't have been a COIN situation to start with.
"...you know that over 75% of the locals are illiterate and that they do not have a "World View" of matters."
I think your comment could easily apply to both. The level of ignorance among most Americans is hard to comprehend.
Especially when so many attribute someone's disagreement with them to ignorance rather than consider that there might be valid points to be made in the contrary position.
In reality, moving that war against radical Islam into Iraq was a stroke of pure genius, because we could have never killed as many in that mountainous country of Afghanistan.
Obama turned out to be a military idiot, just as in economics.
But the LSM will never report it as such
I'm a westerner and I spent time in Afghanistan wearing local dreas. Being pushed aside by American service personnel on the sidewalk is the norm! I witneessed APCs being driven down the center of the highway in Kabul the driver montioning everybody to get out the way. It's thanks to America's naivity sending NG to countries they've never heard of that all foreigners working in Afghanistan become targets.
The snow shall be their winding sheet;
And every turf beneath their feet
Shall be a soldier's sepulcure
Leaving failed states does not help. Think of the mess in Somalia. It is going to be a cancer in the horn of Africa and will cost many lives, American, African, UN etc for decades. Pay the cost and get it done or our children will be dealing with the consequences
Best regards,
Heywood
Of course the Taliban are evil incarnate - thats why we are in AFPAK displacing them from power and ensuring they do not have a safe haven from which to strike us again with their Al Qaeda cohorts. They are unjust and brutal in their treatment of anyone not like minded and whether they are a woman or child makes no difference to them.
What makes us different from them is that we are not that way - we represent the fairest system of government and society known to man kind. We are not the Taliban, so everyone stop comparing our atrocities to theirs. Two wrongs do not make a right!
What this soldier allegedly did is horrific and he should be held to the full extent of the law and the same goes for anyone who may have been a part of it as well. This soldier's alleged actions are not who we are and every one of us has an obligation to make that as clear as we can at every opportunity - and that is not accomplished by pointing to the Taliban's actions and saying they are just as bad or worse so say something to them. That is a 6 year olds way of thinking when they are in trouble - and should not be America's way of thinking or communicating.
We must regain the moral high ground (if possible at this point) or this COIN fight is lost and I remain convinced we cannot afford to lose this fight.
Robin, wake up and smell the coffee... and consider being a bit less of a useful idiot for our enemies. Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda were based in the frontier region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, even though they were Saudis. Terrorist networks are mobile, get it?
So drop the barvo sierra that 9-11 had "nothing to do" with Afghanistan. If the Afghans don't want us to invade, maybe they ought to think about keeping terrorists from their midst.
Re: "The US has no respect for anyone with a brown skin..." Oh, the race card... isn't that lovely.... the last resort of the fool who's run out of arguments. Sod off.
Back in 2004 in a letter to USNI Proceedings I sadly predicted all this when a lot of retired Marines were saying the same method used in South Vietnam with small unit of Marines embedded with SV self defense forces was the solution in Afghanistan. I wrote a letter to the editor personally not thinking it would be printed. It was and I think every Marine on earth was mad at me. I made clear that RELIGION (what they call 'DEEM') was all important and unless those Marines were willing to convert all we would be doing is making them targets. Also I stated the US/NATO military think that #1 is weapons, tactics and combat training trumped all. That learning the Afghans and there culture was not even the top ten. And as some Marine commandants have stated book learning is almost impossible to get done unless it is forced with threats.
Now to some comments made about the massacre and the Taliban behavior. This was the same exact excuses given by the American militia men after Gnadenhutten. And I think many American captives at the burning thought about that. It was also the knee jerk reaction of many American veterans organizations like the VFW and AL. But as one member of Calley's court martial board stated to a question about how we have to take into consideration the type of warfare the VC waged: "How many grenades was that baby hiding when it was flung down that well."
For those wanting to prevent the type of murder that happened in Afghanistan read "The Dark and Bloody River" by A. Eckert and look in the index for GNADENHUTTEN. Then re-read some of the comments made on this forum and else where. If US commissioned officers had been forced to study what happened in March 1782 maybe My Lai and what recently happened would not have happened. War in Afghanistan or any Muslim nation still in the 8th century is more than weapons, combat training and combat tactics.
Jack E. Hammond
We have screwed this up from the get go
1)our Generals are too political, and kiss the ass of the politicians
2)We negotiating with the Taliban?
3)We left Karzai in power, this guy is a as crooked as Obama
4)We allow Iran to make IED's
5)We put bullshit ROE on our own troops
6)We allow the Afghans to produce drugs
7)We dont fight hard and fierce, kill and destroy and leave, we pussy foot around, spend billions, loose lives and respect
2, Not any longer, they decided it's best not to touch the "great satan" with a six-foot stick considering recent events in Afghanistan. That said though, it is generally speaking a good idea to negotiate with the enemy if you intend to leave before you have had enough time to win over him, otherwise you will pretty much have lost the war.
3, What, he used drugs when he was young? Unless Obama has stayed in office despite embarrasingly obvious election fraud that makes Katherine Harris look like a requirement for democracy, has had a brother who was a corrupt drug baron/governmen t official/crime king, and various other things I can't be bothered to mention, it's ridicolous to compare Karzai to Obama.
4, It's either put up with Iran acting like you'd expect them to, or invade Iran. Though considering the very real Iranian IEDs, and the less real Iraqi WMDs, maybe invading Iran would make more sense than invading Iraq, especially considering that they actually might have WMDs?
5, Examples?
6, Yes. The grim truth is that if we didn't, hundreds of thousands of Afghan farmer would loose their livelihood and have to chose between starving, or joining the Talibans.
7, Have you read what Mr Yon wrote during his embedment with TF Spartan?
• No night or surprise searches.
• Villagers have to be warned prior to searches.
• ANA or ANP must accompany U.S. units on searches.
• U.S. soldiers may not fire at the enemy unless the enemy is preparing to fire first.
• U.S. forces cannot engage the enemy if civilians are present.
• Only women can search women.
• Troops can fire at an insurgent if they catch him placing an IED but not if insurgents are walking away from an area where explosives have been laid.
Commanders have reportedly ordered a U.S. military unit in Afghanistan to patrol in a manner that could handicap them.
Some soldiers are being ordered to conduct patrols without a round chambered in their weapons, The US Report has learned from an anonymous source at a forward operating base in Afghanistan. Our source was unsure if the order came from his unit or if it affected other units.
On war correspondent Michael Yon's Facebook page, commenters stated that this is a common practice in Iraq, while others said that it is occurring in Afghanistan as well. According to military protocol, "Amber" status requires weapons to have a loaded magazine, but the safety on and no round chambered.
"The idea that any combat unit would conduct any operation, including patrolling and even manning a security post -- in which direct action may-or-may not take place -- and not having weapons loaded, borders on being criminally negligent in my opinion," says Lt. Col. W. Thomas Smith Jr., a recognized expert on terrorism and military/nation al defense issues. "This is nothing more than infusing politically correct restrictions into already overly restrictive rules of engagement. And this PC nonsense is going to get people killed."
Guess the ANA and ANP could really make use of the training, so why not bring them along for searches? They've only got two years before facing the Talibans on their own.
Generally speaking, the civilians clear off when a firefight is about to commence because they are warned by the Talibans, and they are usually the ones who chose when the shooting starts.
Only letting women search women is a no brainer in Afghanistan. If male soldiers would do it, local support would go away over night in many areas.
Exactly how do you determine that the person who's walking away laid the explosives? If you saw him do it, then why not shoot him at that point?
Patroling without a round chambered is just dumb. It won't reduce civilian casulties, and will just delay the return of fire. (Though, I thought that M16/M4s couldn't switch to "Safe" without a round in the chamber?)
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